(The following conversation came in connection with two letters sent by the young Indian disciple who accompanied A.R., the healer, in his solitary retreat.) <390>
October 21, 1969
Mr. A.R. asked me if I had finished reading the "Notes on the Way" again. As for me, I asked him if he had found something after his studies of these last two days. Then there was a stream of words. He said:
"I haven't learned anything new. All that she [Mother] says I have known for twenty years. The very basis of my experience was the transformation of the cells, that was my starting point. According to what Mother writes, I think she only began this experience two years ago, and I understand she has now completed it. So for me, all that she says is true, correct, and it cannot be otherwise. Only, unlike her, I did not go through every stage of the experience in detail, right to the end. My method was direct straight, all the way up; I cut out all those stages and visions on the way, because otherwise I could not have done what I did. You understand, I couldn't attempt those details, because if I had, I would have lost my aim, I would have missed my realization. For her, it's all right, because she was educated. She knows philosophy, metaphysics, science, and what not! Moreover, she had the good fortune of meeting Sri Aurobindo. I would like to meet him. But as for me, I was all alone. So I had no option. I don't regret it. I came here because I knew there was here someone who spoke my language. I got confirmation of my experiences, and I provide confirmation to her experience. That's right. One might say that we have gone hand in hand into our experience-we are on the same plane. That's how I understand it. I don't know what she thinks of me, she didn't tell me anything. I wanted to talk with her, but I don't think she is inclined to speak much. So! ...
" At any rate, she told me she would help me; in that case, something is surely being done. The seed you sow today doesn't grow the next day. We must wait. It may take time."
***
October 24, 1969
What I am going to write will interest you, I think. It followed a long talk yesterday evening.
Subject: Mr. A.R.s mission in this life. <391>
He told me he was acquiring such a force that he could face any obstacle, and will thus be capable of asserting in front of people the power of the divine force. "I first want to become absolutely sure that I can manifest this force at any time and against any obstacle. Then I will show people, in a crowd of a thousand people, through a practical demonstration, by calling ten or fifteen sick people among them and curing them with this force. Then they will perforce be convinced that there is indeed a Force that can do anything. But for that, I must be ready. For eighty percent of the people will be against me, and to convince them I must be really strong, well armed and sure! Once I am ready, no one will be able to stop me. All governments and religions will collapse. I will write to the Pope, asking him what they are preaching now. What did Christ tell us in the Gospels! He told his apostles to go and heal the sick and drive demons away. What are the priests and the Catholics doing today?"
I asked him, "Are you sure that is your mission?"
"Yes, I am sure. I have known it for a long time. And I am preparing myself for that. The day is not far off To do that, one must first be as strong as Christ."
"But don't you think it's much better to seek the Divine for Himself than to seek Him for some power, even the power to assert his existence? My do you want to give proof every moment? And is it necessary to demonstrate it through healing?"
"Of course you are right, there, when you say that one should seek the Divine for his own sake. For you people, it's easy to understand since you are bathing in this atmosphere here. But for the Western man, a proof is needed, he wants to know what he will gain! The easiest and most striking thing to demonstrate is healing. There. It's really quite simple. I don't know if you understand it. Christ, too, did the same thing!"
***
Have you seen brother A?... [[A Catholic monk who had come to the Ashram a year earlier. A.R., the heater, met him, and it was after this meeting that A.R. began speaking of his "healing mission." ]] He has changed a lot - a lot. He's incomparably better than before. He went to stay with Buddhists, it seems. He was supposed to go to Vinoba Bhave's place, but I don't think he stayed there, because he is coming from a Buddhist monastery. <392>
But he remains as Christian as before, doesn't he?
I don't know ... He doesn't want to go back to France, because he says he would be "troubled" there! He will go to a monastery in Greece, then he says he would come back here .... But he's changed a lot. A lot.
And the other ... [the healer], the other is very amusing!
Is he?
He's very amusing! (Mother laughs) If it were an ordinary consciousness, what presumptuousness! But in him, it's a sort of spontaneity. It's very amusing. But the two of them [A.R. and brother A.] have got along well enough; they said they would meet, they've arranged to meet each other ... I forget where.
It's amusing.
But what do you think of this "miraculous mission" in the world?
(Mother laughs) If he succeeds, it will be interesting. That's what I think.
Is it an illusion, or is it a promise? I don't know ... You see, for his hernia, it was rather interesting, because when you told me about it, I concentrated, I looked, and I saw the Force come, I saw that if he brought his hernia in, it wouldn't come out again-which is already miraculous. But he says it must go in by itself, without any intervention! ... That's ... it's much farther on the scale. If it happens, well, I'll bow down.
I don't know, we'll see.
I don't know, but I rather feel it's an illusion, this idea of striking a "big blow" at people's minds by working miracles ....
Oh, yes. That's impossible. It's childishness.
Yes, so it seems to me.
Especially here, where so many people have worked so-called miracles.
He wants to do it in Europe. <393>
Oh!
In Europe, with television, radio, and by stirring the masses with spectacular cures.
Babah! That's childishness.
Well, yes! So it seems to me.
Let him just do as he likes.
It's not miracles that can convert humanity.
No.
No. But it's because he has no culture that he thinks that way.
Now, it may happen! After all, I'm not quite sure that Christ didn't work miracles.
Yes, he did.
Ah, that's what we're told - we weren't there! (laughter)
What shocks me a bit is this idea of doing "better than Christ" .... My impression is that what needs to be done is something ELSE altogether!
(Mother laughs) Oh, yes.
(silence)
But it seems Christ himself said he would come back "with God's sword" - which means it's no longer the same thing at all. As for me, I never believed: I had a lot of difficulty, it's Sri Aurobindo who made me believe in the physical reality of Christ; I always thought it was some story people told- they took hold of just anybody and built a story around him. But Sri Aurobindo believed in it. He said it was an Avatar - a partial Avatar.
(silence)
But what Id like to understand is basically the kind of power he has-what kind of realization does this man have? What kind of power - is it a supramental power, or what? <394>
All that I can say is that out of all the people he treated here, he didn't cure one - with all of them the trouble came back. And to my vision, it's because, here, only those who MUST be ill are ill.
So it can't be a supramental power.
(silence)
He asked to see me today I will see him. Naturally, I won't say anything, and if he speaks, I won't listen to him. But I'll try to SEE.
According to what he says, and according to what I've seen so far, he has the impression of a Harmony higher than the creation, which hasn't yet fully manifested, and which would manifest through him .... There's something true there, except that instead of manifesting through a person, this Harmony is trying to descend on earth. I saw that; I think that where he is childish is when he takes it as something personal - that's all. That's my impression. But that this Harmony is trying to descend and would certainly make it easier for the new creation seems to me correct.
Success in the world always depends on a ... (how should I put it?) a diminishing and a personifying of things. For instance, for me there would be nothing surprising to his working miracles, because something which, to a consciousness-an enlightened consciousness, the Truth- Consciousness - is a logical consequence, becomes miraculous to an unenlightened consciousness. So for him to make a name for himself as a miracle-worker wouldn't be surprising in the least. He may be destined to become ...
It's amusing! (Mother laughs)
He has the very ingenuousness (the ingenuousness of ignorance) thanks to which he doesn't have a mind that looks and smiles. He is wholly in his conviction - it's a condition good for people, they haven't gone beyond that.
We'll see.
All those supermiracles are NOT convincing.
Oh, no, not at all! Not at all.
Not convincing. It's a sort of super-conjuring trick, and once it's past, it's past - it hasn't changed anything within.
No.
So what is he going to do there? ... I feel he's going onto a painful <395> path, this man. He is going to fall into the lions' den.
You understand, he didn't see the light here. He remained shut in his realization.
Exactly! That's in fact why I would have liked to see him BEFORE he meets you.
No, no! No, it's amusing, mon petit! We must let things unfold and see! (Mother laughs ironically) You can see him AFTER. As for me, I am keen to see him before - you would put something in him ... No, no! I want to see him.
Because, Mother, what he will do, what he does in front of you (or in front of anyone) is to dart up, catch hold of his "thing, and there you are, he pulls it.
But I can go above it!
Yes, but then he will take it as something "from above"!
Ah, but that doesn't matter! (Mother laughs) It doesn't matter, mon petit! It's very amusing (Mother laughs more and more) .... You know, to receive the Illumination OF THE TRUTH is such a grace - I don't know ... if it's really meant for him, he will get it, and that's what I want to know If he doesn't get it, it means that ... (Mother makes a vast, rhythmical gesture) he is part of the immense Play.
(long silence)
He is coming today I said he should go and see you after leaving from here, that way you will be able to feel whether ... whether something has been shaken.
Yes, let him come and see me after leaving from here.
He is coming around 3:30 - I won't keep him long. Ah! ... He hasn't learned to sit on the floor, has he?
Yes, he can do it, Mother.
With this hernia, maybe it's not ... <396>
If his back is supported, he can. At home I had him sit on the floor.
Oh, then it's all right.
But with the back supported ....
(silence)
As for me, I understand very well how it takes place: there's a certain (I don't know if it's a realization), but something that is there [gesture above], you catch hold of That, and you can catch it while prostrating yourself before a stone, while prostrating yourself at the Samadhi, while being in the street and everywhere, and it's THE-SAME-THING.
Yes, yes.
And it's irrefutable.
Yes, exactly.
So if he is in front of you and catches that, it's "the same thing" again!
(Mother laughs)
But I am convinced that the first time I saw him, for him it made no difference: he was completely shut in his own creation. It did go in, but he didn't feel it was something new ... You understand, the subtlety of the discernment comes from a refinement of consciousness that isn't within everyone's reach. The subtlety of the discernment.
To me, what's mysterious is that one may have the divine consciousness and yet not see. How can it be? Because he has a divine consciousness, that's certain. But how can he not see?
(After a silence) As I see him, it's because he needs the thing to be manifested through a personal consciousness. A "personal consciousness," I mean someone [Mother] who is "conscious of bearing the Divine," who feels, I bear the Divine," you understand? When that isn't there (the Divine is there, that's all, but there <397> isn't I am the Divine"), he can't feel. And I'll go farther: I don't think there are many Europeans or Westerners who can feel it. Indians, it's because of atavism. But all those who are westernized cannot feel any longer. They need the sense of the person, the person who says, "I am," you understand. But this body ... (laughing), the body has gone beyond the stage where it says, "I am"! The very idea makes it laugh.
That's why.
Yet I, for one, feel a difference. For a very long time I racked my brains trying to understand. I said to myself, "When I touch That up above, it's the same thing, always the same thing" ... until the day I asked myself, "Let's see, what's the difference when I am with Mother and when I am alone with That?"
Did you feel the difference?
Well, then, I understood something (that wasn't long ago). [[That was in fact a great turning point in Satprem's life: the experiential understanding between the great "That" and the "something else" that flows through Mother. It thus took Satprem fifteen years to come close to Mother ... ]] My impression was that when I am with you, it isn't something I catch up above, but rather something that comes FROM WITHIN.
Ah!
As if I were seized from within ...
Yes, yes.
... and everything were lighting up from within.
Yes, that's it! That's right. It's exactly that, it's correct.
It's not something that drops down onto my shoulders.
Yes, that's right. But it's the raison d'être for this (Mother touches her body), for the presence here. It's so things may be ... from within - not a miraculous descent.
Yes, that's the difference.
<398>
But then, in his case, he felt even more convinced, you understand? He felt [in front of Mother], yes, quite comfortable. That's why I told you that the physical ego hasn't gone .... He found it quite natural - he must have felt very comfortable!
(silence)
The state now is such that when the body FEELS ITSELF (feels itself, that is to say, is aware of being a body), INSTANTLY there's a discomfort, whatever the condition. Even when it feels in a state of adoration or aspiration or ... it's accompanied by discomfort. And only when there's no more awareness at all of its separate existence does it feel comfortable. So then, the normal state is silence, stillness, but ... (the image isn't correct - how can I explain?), you see, the Presence, it's not that it flows through, but when it radiates like this (gesture), radiates through an activity, then everything is fine and there's no more at all the sensation of "this [the body] through which": this through which the Divine flows - there isn't. It's like this (immutable gesture), still and nonexistent, without any self- awareness, aware only of ... the Divine Action, like that. Then everything is fine. And the minute there's even a slight impression of the Thing flowing "through," discomfort comes. You understand, it has become a very acute state.
See, I might say (it sounds like literature) that in a certain state, in that state in which it no longer feels itself and only the awareness of the Divine remains, there's the sense of an Immortality, of Eternity; and if there's the least sensation of "something in which" the Divine manifests, it absolutely becomes the sense of death - you instantly become mortal again. And acute, you know, acute like that. But then, it's very subtle, because ... the sensation (sensation or perception or feeling) of "I" has completely disappeared, all the time, all the time-really so, completely; it's the "something," the something which is still a little different, and that becomes terribly painful - the body is perfectly at case only when it no longer feels itself.
It's hard to explain, but that's how it is.
(long silence)
It must be that .... There are innumerable layers of consciousness. The development (the universal development) has progressively enabled us to become conscious of each layer; the more developed one is, the more one perceives the differences between layers. And <399> it's only when one is conscious of ALL the layers of consciousness and when they form nothing but a unity (but a unity conscious of its multiplicity), it's only then that what's in the deepest depths ... the Supreme Consciousness can manifest fully. And in bodies, there are still layers that aren't fully conscious; there are still layers that remain as a residue of all that preceded: the mineral, the vegetable, the animal, all that. So the whole fully conscious part of the cells is fully illumined, but ... Besides, one just has to see (Mother shows the skin of her hands, visibly untransformed) .... It has become EXTREMELY sensitive, the slightest shock causes a ... It has become extremely sensitive .... It appears not to have the same "density" ... but the appearance is exactly the same. Those who have an inner vision see something [another form of Mother], but that's only because they have the capacity of inner vision. So that's it [i.e., the residue]. You understand, in the consciousness of the cells, there is the consciousness which is "internal" to the cells, so to speak, and which is fully, fully conscious, but there's something that remains like this (Mother gestures to show a crust-like covering the residue). So then, that work a man like A.R. hasn't done, you see: it's a sort of hazy general consciousness. He himself is conscious of something "stronger than his body," and which "uses" his body, it seems to me .... In the world, it's very useful and can give birth to all sorts of things. But he isn't ready for the transformation, you understand - himself, his body. He has a sort of inner certitude that it CAN be, but ... I don't know ... unless the Lord wants it to take place that way; that would be amusing - really, I would find it very amusing!
Because he speaks of a work of transformation of the cells.
He speaks, yes.
But then, what exactly does he mean?
(Mother laughs) Of course, it's true!
But I told you, I made the experiment when I saw him: when he left, at the time of leaving, I wanted to touch his hand to know - but I touched a HAND, you understand? I touched a HAND (Mother feels a hardness), there was HIS hand - I didn't touch the Divine! I touched a hand .... And I think he feels the Force acting THROUGH his hand. <400>
Yes, for him, it's always a "descent," it's not something radiating from within. It's a Force that descends.
Does he always have that impression?
That's the impression I, at least, have with him.
That's the impression I have too. When he sat here, I saw the Force descending, descending, descending into him, but there was still a gentleman named A.R. sitting there!
It's not at all something radiating from within.
No.
But the consciousness there (gesture above Mother) is very conscious that these (Mother touches her hands) aren't hands! (Mother laughs) Try as you might, they aren't! It may be a refined body, but they aren't hands. And when I sit here, like that, when this body is sitting and someone is there, it's no longer conscious of itself; it's not at all conscious of a Force flowing through it, no longer conscious of itself - there's the Divine Presence acting. And it becomes conscious of the other's receptivity, of the action of this Force in others, all of it - and this (the body) no longer exists.
But it's only a beginning.
It's a beginning.
What will happen? ...
(silence)
All that is conscious in this [the body] has only one ... only one movement: let there be no difference anymore. That's all. And no impression at all to "pull" from here or there, or to "rise" up above - it's not that: no difference anymore.
And the difference is becoming increasingly painful - much more painful than an illness (it's not the same sort of thing: it's a sort of inner anguish).
(silence)
So you'll see him this evening, after his visit (Mother laughs ironically). <401>
***
(That evening, then, Satprem saw A.R., and after a difficult discussion during which Satprem tried to open A.R.'s eyes, he sent Mother the following letter to give her an account of what had taken place. Satprem was in front of irrefutable Monism - which does not see what is right under its nose.)
October 25, 1969
Sweet Mother,
Near you, A.R. says that he only feels a difference in intensity of the same Thing. I tried to explain to him that it was not quite "the same thing," but he irrefutably says that there is only ONE Thing with varying intensities, and that you only let That flow through more purely than others do. And as we spoke of Avatars, he said: "There cannot be a difference between an Avatar and a realized Yogi, or if there is a difference, it means that the Yogi isn't truly realized."
In short, we both turned round an indefinable difference - which may be the Grace.
And in the end, he was not too happy with me .... I am sorry. I have the impression of having miserably failed.
Your somewhat puzzled child,
with love,
Satprem
(Mother's reply)
Satprem, my dear child,
What A.R. calls me (the mother) is this physical body, and it is a fact that he receives nothing from it. Whether he knows or feels it or not, he receives everything from above, not from within his body.
Today, I observed carefully: the Presence descended in him, in an impersonal form, continuously while he sat in from of me; nothing went directly from this body to his. He stayed here for a shorter time today than the first time, but the experience was the same. When he left, I took his hand to see if I would feel anything particular, but like the first time, I felt nothing, gave nothing, received nothing.
What he says about the avatar and the yogi is logically true.
But there may be a secret beyond men's understanding ... except and only if they wholly abdicate their humanity <402>
Do not be "puzzled" and you will feel the wonderful smile that rules over everything.
With you always,
Mother
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