October 4, 1967

(Sujata gives Mother a flower called "Power to heal.")

Power to heal? ... I've read in Plante the story of a man born in 1905, who for thirty-five years has been healing people by the laying on of hands![[ Mother is referring to Alalouf. See Plante N 35, July-August 1967. ]] His father was Italian, his mother Spanish, and he was born in France, he is French. For thirty-five years he has been practicing the laying on of hands; he has treated five million people - five million. Out of them two thirds were cured, and he has been sued countless times ... by doctors, naturally: he had no right to heal people because he wasn't licensed! ... At one of the trials (I'll tell you the beginning of the story after - the beginning at the end!), maybe one of the last trials, his lawyer arrived very ill, with an attack of sciatica: one leg couldn't be moved, he was in acute pain. The judge, thinking himself very clever, told him, "Well, why don't you cure your lawyer to begin with?" The man got up, laid his hands on his lawyer, and five minutes later the lawyer was cured: "Oh, but I am cured!" (Mother laughs) He was convicted just the same. Wonderful. Anyhow, when he was quite small, that is, five or six, he had pinched a fish from his father who had gone fishing, and the fish couldn't be found. Two weeks later, his parents found the fish again among his things, with his toys ... absolutely dry and perfectly intact! Then the father tried an experiment to see: they had a fishbowl with goldfish; he took out two goldfish and gave one to his son, putting it in the hollow of his son's hand - the fish started drying up. As for the second fish, a few hours later it was rotten. Then they mentioned it to doctors (they were living in Toulouse, that was a little later, when he was twelve or thirteen). One doctor had in his hospital a patient whose wound he had been trying to heal for weeks and weeks in vain: it was horrible, purulent. The doctor called the child, who laid his hands - the next day, the wound was healed.

And this man (I saw his photo, he has a magnificent head) says, "I live in God's presence." That's what he says, and I don't think he makes any fuss - he doesn't have the time to, besides, because he goes to bed after midnight and gets up at five every day, starts work at 5:30 and spends the whole day working, that is, seeing people and people and more people (when that was read out to me, I thought, "And I complain!"). It's admirable. He did some studies, but he isn't a philosopher, he doesn't have any theories: he seems to have been born like that, with healing hands. He probably gets rid of infections by dehydrating, so he cures all the diseases from that side. And they did (poor man, they must have made his life impossible!), they did encephalograms, cardiograms and so on, and they noticed that just when he lays his hands (for a few seconds, two or three minutes at the most), at that moment his heartbeats suddenly go up from sixty to eighty a minute, then fall back to normal. And he doesn't seem to be making any fuss, unlike that German I told you about - nothing at all, very simple, very nice.

I liked that story.

A beautiful head. A tall man, very strong, who eats very little. And he has two or three hours' sleep at night, dreamless (that I understand!).


Sometimes people went to him only once, and he got worried, wondering why the person hadn't come again - "Yes, I was cured!" Then, trial upon trial, and an official of the tax department who, incognito, was present at some of his treatment sessions, said he had never asked for money, not once. And out of ... (I don't know, while the official was there, I think a little over two hundred people were treated), out of two hundred, sixty gave something. So the tax department was forced to acknowledge that he wasn't contravening the law.

Still, he was convicted.

It's rather lovely: you have no right to heal unless you're licensed! ...


Soon afterwards

It's going on.... Have you seen a monk?

Well, I met him in the street, but I didn't speak to him.

He is going to see Pavitra this morning, and F. has seen him twice. He has come here while traveling around India, and he seems to like the place very much. Here is his face (Mother shows a photo). Is this what you met? ... All right. He has written two letters, one to me and one to the prior of his monastery, which he sends for me to read. The two letters together are rather interesting (Mother gives Satprem the first letter):


After only a few days spent in Aurobindo Ashram, where I have been nothing but the "delighted" one from the cribs of Provence, I take the liberty of asking you if you would allow me to remain here until the end of my stay in India, that is, until mid-December....

Signed: Brother A.

P.S. I am enclosing a letter to the Prior of Bellefontaine which I sent him in case it could be of use, and which I thought should be communicated to you.

I told F. to ask him to stay on till Friday, so I could show you this today and ask you if you would mind seeing the gentleman and speaking to him (to see how you feel). But if that troubles you ... F.'s impression is good. Here is his letter to the prior, read it:

"I have received your answer with joy and am writing again.... I am in Aurobindo Ashram, where I thought I would only stay briefly, but there is a certain something here which attracts me strongly, and I think I have had enough of traveling around. I intend to go to Ramakrishna Mutt at Ootacamund, since I informed them of my visit, but will come back here as early as possible. Everything here is wonderful and spellbinding. One who sees beyond the surface panes might well wonder if the new heaven and the new earth St. John speaks of do not meet here.

"I have a big church just a few minutes' walk away, and yesterday morning, the 1st of October, the celebrant said, 'Become citizens of the heavenly city....' He could not have aimed more precisely at my question mark. And in the evening, a young Parisian, landing here as new as a newborn, met before anyone else that same priest of the big church, who told him, 'What have you come here for? There is nothing.' The Parisian answered, 'What about the Ashram?' The priest replied, 'The Ashram? It's a brothel.' Because of that insulting declaration (and it is the kindest thing he said [Mother laughs ...]), I am petitioning Mother for permission to remain here till the end of my stay in India. I do think there is abomination and desolation in the Holy Place. When will the Christ's saying be acknowledged at last, 'A tree is recognized by its own fruits'? Jai-jai!"

Signed: Brother A.

Jai-jai means Victory-victory!

So, if you'd like to speak to him ...

I don't mind seeing him.... Oh, the Catholics here hate us.

Yes. That's also what I said in my declaration,[[In the wake of the events of February 11, 1965, during which the Ashram was besieged, several disciples hurt and a few buildings burnt down, Mother issued a declaration in which she implicated the various elements responsible for that outburst of hatred. Among the very first elements, she mentioned Pondicherry's Catholics: "... First, the militant Catholics, because - in spite of what the Pope declared after his visit in India - they are convinced that whoever is not a Catholic must be an instrument of the devil...." ]] but they told me it wasn't true! They had the cheek to tell me (Catholics who came to see me), "Why did you say that? It's not true." We should stick this letter under their very nose. I KNOW this is how they speak to everybody. A kind of rage.

And it's been going on for a long time. It started when you were here with Governor Baron [twenty years ago]. You remember, they used to write things on the walls?

So you could see him. I was even told he had seen you?

I saw him in the street. But I can't trust my impressions, because ...

What was your impression? I'd be interested to know.

I dare not trust my ...

It's the same with me: they are indignant to begin with, then ...

I can't say I was very enthusiastic.... I felt what you feel with almost all Catholics, that something slightly (what should I call it.?) evasive, not very clean.


Yes, something like that, and underneath you feel a great repression; something there, underneath, which isn't clean.

That was also my impression when I saw his photo.

You feel those people are highly repressed.

They are hypnotized by that sex business.

Yes, that's what I felt underneath, and above, eyes ... that can't look straight at you.

That's right.

A Christian atmosphere of sin, basically.

That's why I wanted you to see him, because naturally, F.'s impression is very good, and Pavitra, when he read the letter, was full of exclamations. As for me, I was like that (withdrawn gesture), on my guard.

Why does he want to come? ... Naturally, it might simply mean that he is very happy and content here - that would be quite all right. But of course he is very much Christian, and doesn't intend to change that.

I don't know.

I wanted to ask you to see him because of that ... slightly painful impression, I don't know. And I didn't want to write him, "Yes, you may stay," if it is to end in something unpleasant. But it may not, if he is conscious - if he is conscious, it won't. You understand, to magnify the thing, in the name of their religion they betray their soul. That's how it is.

If he is conscious of the Possibility, then it will be fine. Because at least he will be on his guard.... But I haven't seen him, I only saw his photo, and the first contact with the photo was like this: "Beware ...."

I also had a recoil. But I put it down to prejudices. I don't trust my feelings, you understand, in my life I've had such abhorrence of this Christianity....

Was he wearing his habit?

No, he was in civilian clothes. But I tell you, the impression was that underneath it hasn't been spiritually cultivated.

Well, see him. I'd like you simply to tell me yes or no, that is, "Favorable impression" or "Unfavorable impression," something simple, one sentence, so that accordingly I may send him a line to tell him, "You may stay," or "It would be better if you didn't stay."

But in the end, he will still find himself faced with the same problem as always: religion versus freedom.

That's simply on the intellectual level. Because if he isn't a philosopher, if he doesn't live in ideas, it doesn't matter at all: it's rather a question of EXPERIENCE.... It seems that the experience he had[[In France. ]] was a "descent of Ananda," something he had never felt before, which came to him all of a sudden. Then he told his Superior, "I'd like to go all alone into solitude, to the countryside," because he didn't like rites, ceremonies and all that. So that was the starting point, and then he felt the need to come to India. And in India he traveled all around, until he came here. He has been in orders for only two or three years, it's a recent conversion (not "conversion" from a religious standpoint but from the standpoint of life, because he must have been Catholic since his childhood, but he desired to leave life and become a monk), that's recent.

But it's a strange monastery, because Pavitra has had quite a sustained correspondence with an abbot who was in that monastery (he has a file of letters this thick!), then it stopped abruptly, I don't know why.

I don't feel this man is an intellectual, that's not the difficulty. But how to free them from the hold? That's the question.

Yes, it is. That's what I felt when I saw him: that thing which was there over him. It's a sort of "thing" common to all those people.

All of them.

An atmosphere. It's an atmosphere ...

It's a collective suggestion, mon petit, and so strong, so strong!

I told you the story: some people, when they are awake, resist and fight; intellectually, they understand; then, when they are half conscious or in sleep, it seizes them and they are terrorized.... It's over the WHOLE earth, the whole earth (there are Christians everywhere), it's an atmosphere that I see like a huge spider all over the earth.


At any rate, there is clearly an effort to come closer (I showed you the Pope's declaration). That's why if the time had come to undo that hold, it would be worth trying.

That's simply why I leave the door open - we'll see. For years I didn't concern myself with it, but now that the Force has been going like this for some time (gesture of pressure), building up and building up and building up (it's tremendous), all that will have to change at some time or other, so ... has the time come?

It's rather significant that for some time you've been seeing Catholics come to you from every side!

Well, yes!

That Mrs. Z, this monk ...

Oh, and also others who write.

Yes, that's why: if he has a conscious goodwill, that is, if the hold is a subconscious affair ... (I told you, he isn't a man with a mental power he needs to fight against, it's not that), but if he has a great goodwill, through him we may be able to do something. That's why I want you to see him.


(Then Mother turns to the translation of the message she intends to distribute for the November darshan:)

There is a text I find very interesting, I had never read it. I already told you about that:

"There is always this critical hostile voice in everybody's nature, questioning, reasoning, denying the experience itself, suggesting doubt of oneself and doubt of the Divine. One has to recognise it as the voice of the Adversary trying to prevent the progress and refuse credence to it altogether."

Sri Aurobindo

It interested me greatly, because I noticed it was in the PHYSICAL consciousness, and very widespread, and one constantly, constantly had to fight against it - in oneself, in others, everywhere. It's like that, "underneath," as you said. So I find it interesting to say.


Soon afterwards

Do you have anything to tell me?

Yes, but it's not important.

Never mind.

I saw T. She told me about her mother's departure, and said you talked to her about a certain experience you had had with her mother during her whole period of coma or "unconsciousness"?


And she would like you to tell your experience again.

You know, I can never tell the same experience twice. It came (it wasn't my intention to tell her all that; my intention was to say a word or two, "All is well"), then it came, and so I spoke. But once it has come out, it's over. I don't even remember what I told her. One thing I know. It's that I deliberately (I don't know if this is what she understood), I deliberately wanted her mother's departure to take place in the most harmonious possible conditions, with the least possible wastage, so she may retain the COMPLETE fruit of her passage in life, and ... What I did in reality (but this I didn't tell her), from the moment I got the news of her stroke (it was an apoplectic seizure), was to put her in a bath of the Lord. I kept her like this (gesture of enfolding). So, as for me, I knew first of all that if she was to be cured, she would recover quickly enough, and that if she didn't recover, it would show it was really time for her to go, but then she would go with ... her body benefiting, so to speak, the substance benefiting from the whole profit from physical life, and with her inner being in the best conditions. Of course, the inner being in the best conditions is the case for everyone, for all those who pass away here (but I generally don't have the opportunity to let the inner being go out slowly, you understand[[Because people hurry to burn the body. ]]). I saw ... you know that when Sri Aurobindo left, we kept him for five days; I saw how it happened. I told you, while I stood beside him, it came out of his body and entered mine, and it was so material that there was a friction - the body felt the friction of the Force coming in. And I saw (of course, in that case it was quite different, tremendous, but for everybody it's like that), I saw this: for the departure to be as harmonious as possible, it should take place like that, according to an inner RHYTHM, with the Presence (which is both a protection and a help), the Presence of the divine Force. So I put her in that Presence. And even (I don't know if she told you), when her brother, who is a doctor, came, he declared with their usual overweening confidence, "Oh, she'll be gone before tomorrow noon." I didn't say anything, remained quiet. Naturally, three more days went by. And even he was forced to acknowledge that there was something there he didn't understand.

What did she tell you?

She told me you had had a special experience with her mother, in the sense that the consciousness of the cells, the material consciousness of her body's cells, was able to leave along with the inner being, it wasn't lost.

Yes, but that is the NORMAL thing.

It's the normal thing. But then, it takes time. And the result is that the whole benefit the cells got isn't lost.

Yes, here, they hurry to burn people, that's terrible.

Oh! ... But she was buried. Oh, I know that. I know, I saw two or three cases here, people who were conscious - it was horrible for them, frightful, frightful.

There was the case of C.[[An engineer of the Ashram. Mother already spoke of this case in Agenda I of May 28, 1960. ]] He had learned to go out of his body, he knew how to do it: he would go about and see things; he would see, note things, and come back into his body. Then, when he was operated on, the doctors didn't take the necessary precautions and the heart couldn't withstand the shock of the operation: five days later, it was over. But he was in the habit of going out, so he went out and came to me (that's how I knew it before they came to tell me he was "dead"). But he wasn't at all aware of being dead: he had gone out of his body as he used to, and he came to me. he was with me. So then, it was quite fine, he remained peaceful. Then, at a certain point ... (he died in hospital, and naturally, at that time nobody listened to me: they burned him much too soon - it would have been too soon anyway, because in his case, precisely because he had that practice, much precaution and time would have been required; but it was all rushed through), then all of a sudden, when they burned him (I didn't even know the time of the cremation), he suddenly came into my room, you know, appalled ... appalled, crying, miserable: "But I am dead! I didn't know I was dead, but I am dead and they've burned me, they've burned me! ..." Oh ... it was horrible, horrible. So I calmed him down, told him to stay there, be calm, be with me, and that I would find him another body. And for a long, long time I had him consciously near me. Then I taught him to reincarnate - it was all done in detail. So I know ...

The same thing with N.S. In his case also ... He had fallen on his head and fractured it (he fell in a faint in the street, that's how he died). He was taken to the hospital. But he went out[[Went out of his body. Mother narrated this experience in Agenda III, July 4, 1962. ]] and came to me right away (and so I knew: when I was told the accident had happened, I already knew something had happened because he had come to me). I kept him there, put him to rest, and he was quite peaceful - quite peaceful. They didn't even consult me about the time when he should be burned or anything (of course, a family of doctors!). Then, suddenly, brrt! (gesture of bursting) he went out of my atmosphere abruptly, like that. And no more sign of him.... It took me DAYS to recontact him - and that was the shock he had when they burned his body. It took me days to find him again, put him back to rest, gather him together. And one part had disappeared; his whole consciousness didn't return, because a part of his most material consciousness, of the material vital, must have been thrown out by the shock. I know it, because Albert's[[Albert: the Ashram's kind tailor. ]] father was operated on (it was more than a year later, maybe two), and when he was chloroformed, he suddenly saw N.S. in front of him (of course, even a part can take on the appearance of the whole being, Sri Aurobindo explained that, it's like a photograph). He saw N.S., and N.S. asked him news of his family, news of his wife, news of his children, and he told him, "I worry about them." It must have been the part tied to his family, which must have been separated from the rest of his being: when he came to me, he was complete, but afterwards, I don't know what happened (gesture of bursting under the shock). And it was so concrete that when Albert's father was woken up again, he said aloud, "But why are you cutting short my conversation with N.S.?" That's how they found out. He told them, "But I was talking with N.S., why have you interrupted my conversation?" So they found out.


(Sujata:) Mother, I too saw N.S.


It was the year he died, but months later. Less than a year later: eight or nine months. I saw him, he had come to my house (it was in the night, in dream), he was in our house, standing near the door, and I went to see him.[[ Sujata later added: "He was very tall, as high as the door. And he asked me news of his wife." ]] But someone who was near me said, "But he's dead!" And that gave poor N.S. such a shock, he was in pain. So I took him with me, made him stretch out on my bed. V. was there, and I sent her to inform you.

All that in dream?

All that in dream. I calmed him down, then told V. to go and see you.

But that division, that separated part came about when they burned him. Until then, I had kept him complete, and would have made him pass into the psychic as I do with everyone, peacefully, smoothly, without difficulty. But brrt! (same gesture of bursting) It's a frightful shock, you know! They put the fire in the mouth first.... It's ... Oh, the way men behave with each other - I have SEEN all that, I have SEEN it.... It's such a frightful, frightful thing!

And to think that ... It has happened not once or twice but hundreds of times that people who loved someone (they loved their father or brother, or their mother), as soon as that person is dead, if they see him in a dream or vision, they get terribly frightened and try to chase him away! .... Why?... If I ask them why, it's such a spontaneous movement in them that they can't answer me. They can't, they find it so natural that they are surprised I should ask the question.

That's what I said to T. (I don't think she understood), I told her that there isn't so much difference between what people call "life" and what they call "death"; the difference is very small, and grows still smaller when you go into the problem in depth and in all the details. People always make a clean cut between the two - it's quite stupid: some living are already half dead, and many dead are VERY alive.


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